Look at the pictures. All of them.
See the sanctuary bedecked with military regalia.
See the American flag covering the cross.
See Porter Memorial's own program for the recruiting drive.
Baptists historically have taken stands against this sort of horror.
I could talk to you about the idolatry that is so obvious in this cheap, easy patriotism. About how these people offer the Body of Christ to be raped by the State. But I won't bother. These are not churches. They are basilicas draped with the Imperial colors, dedicated to Mars, the god of war.
So go on, you adulterers. Sell out your baptism and deny the Maker of heaven and earth.
We're reading Bonhoeffer this semester: The Cost of Discipleship. Christ bids us to come and die, not wrap ourselves in the rhetoric and protections of the State. The German church (so-called) stood by while the German State claimed divine sanction to grind people up in its gears. The churches gave their blessing.
You give the State carte blanche, merrily treading on the blood of Christ and his martyrs.
Whether American flags or Nazi swastikas, it makes no difference to you people, does it?
Does it?
Continue in this and be damned.
These people make their first allegiance to the god of the United States. Not the God of the cross. Not Jesus Christ.
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Technorati Tags: patriotism, nationalism, World War Two, baptists, nazis, Bonhoeffer
Comments
17 comments:
That is disturbing. I am fairly pro-military, but even I can't handle this.
You are right on...Baptists have historically had to stand up against this because they were on the political margin (thanks to us Anglicans I might add).
Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Porter is a good church. I know the pastor, Dr. Henard and he's a good man.
Porter is showing their support for the troops. They're not necessarily showing support of President Bush or of the war in Iraq. I see nothing wrong with that. It has nothing to do with the separation of church and state...This isn't a political ploy; it's patriotism. The church can't be patriotic and still remain separate?! I think they can.
It's not as if they were purposely covering up the cross and baptismal with the flag. Just because they're Baptist, doesn't mean they're sacrilegious.
"These people make their first allegiance to the god of the United States. Not the God of the cross. Not Jesus Christ."
How can you know this? How can you make this assumption from something like this? This wasn't a Sunday service. Holding this type of program in Porter's building doesn't negate the fact that it is also a place of worship...and not worship of the government but of the Jesus Christ that both you and I know.
Opinion: I find no basis for your post, Kyle. That was pretty hardcore.
I need to say something else. *gasp*
"Aspiring Nomadic Doc", I wish you knew me...because this comment may seem harsh, but I don't mean for it to be. You're sixth paragraph block was honestly uncalled for. I wish you knew Kyle a little better...If you did, you'd know he doesn't do things for shock value. I don't think his opinions are "detrimental to our Cause". Kyle, I'm not trying to speak for you because I think you're more than capable of defending yourself when you feel the need...BUT...Kyle has a passion for the church and for finding some kind of purity in it and holding onto it. There are certain things that "push his buttons"...I think that's fair to say for all of us. This particular deal at Porter "set him off"...whereas, a comment from a Seminarian such as, "Yeah, I figured she'd end up at UofL...She seemed like the 'worldly' type" may piss me off...and I may vent for several lines, not about that specific comment, but about what I believe is at the heart of the comment: COMPLETE AND TOTAL RELIGIOUS ARROGANCE.
Kyle, I was just expressing my disagreement with your post. I think I do understand the heart behind what you said...and I can't say I disagree with that.
Peace.
Actually...y'know what? Now that I think about it...I think Kyle does say things sometimes for shock value (and it's ALWAYS hilarious)...But I don't think this post is an example.
"United States Military Sponsors Porter Memorial Baptist Church Event"
Please provide your evidence that this event was sponsored by the U.S. Military.
Aspiring Nomadic Doc --
(just calling it uncalled for).
It's not as if we're hiding anything from unbelievers. All they have to do is look around at our churches...Ask ten different people on the street what they think Christianity is...and you'll get ten different answers (most of them probably negative).
They're not oblivious.
So why should we pretend to be? Kyle was confronting something that he obviously believes is a problem in this particular church. Maybe it wasn't the best way to say it, but at least he has the boldness to say it, whether you and I agree with the words he used or not.
We as Christians, confronting what we believe to be problems in the church is the complete opposite of detrimental.
If we ignore it, we are a part of it. And to the rest of the world, not only are we hateful and elitist...we are also liars.
I won't pretend that the problems in the church are not there...THAT, brother, is detrimental to our cause.
Well well, you've stepped in it now haven't you O Kyle? Yes, you have. I'll not go into all my deeply held convictions about this matter - just a few. See, there's an assumption in portions of the Christian world, that patriotism and some alliegence to the State is very appropriate for the Church, or a church. I fully realize this. This is where we live.
I would present, though, that this is not a given. It cannot be assumed so quickly. Realize that there is a very long and deep tradition in Christianity that sees nothing appropriate in these things at all. I would never see it as appropriate for the church to even have the flag of it's host country displayed in the sanctuary in any way, much less in this blatant manner. It really has nothing to do with God. I'm not saying they're "anti-Christ" for doing it. I'm sure they truly believe that what they're doing is right and good. I just happened to deeply disagree.
And really, any event put on in a church-owned facility by that church is a "church service," even if you don't call it that. It is fully perceived as that whatever you call it. Again, I'm sure they feel it's fine. I'm just trying to make the point that to say "it's just being patriotic" doesn't quite make some of us go "oooohhh, is that all, well then.." As I said, it's not a given that being patriotic at that level and a Christian is necessarily compatible. Not saying you can't be "saved" and be a patriot, I just believe it's a distraction and not our part to play in the world. Peace to all in this house.
Alan, not sure I understand your "not saying you can't be 'saved' and be a patriot, I just believe it's a distraction and not our part to play in the world" statement...or the rest of your comment, for that matter.
I don't want a debate to come up about patriotism, so I probably shouldn't say this...but I will anyway. There's nothing wrong with being thankful to the branches of our military for their part in fighting for our freedom. How is that a distraction? Right, we are called to concentrate our main attention on the things of Christ and on his plans for the world and our part in it...But we may also love our spouses and families and our country.
Patriotism is NOT the mission of the church...but I don't see how it's a distraction, either.
For what it's worth, Jesse, I don't think you were being too ranty at all. I enjoyed your post.
The thing that stuck out to me in your post was that comment you quoted from Locomono (sp?). True, Jesus was angry that his temple was being defiled by the money changers...But my difficulty is deciding if this "Men's Night Out" thing can be defined as a defilement. As of yet, I haven't seen anything that would make me think it is.
Why again is this such a big deal? I honestly want to know. I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I don't think I'm understanding why this is such a concern. I don't believe they were "covering the alter" and covering the cross and baptismal on purpose to somehow signify that the state is superior to the church...or even that the state has any business as part of the church.
It was just another silly Baptist program.
I like you, Jesse. I do. I read you blog quite regularly. Maybe I should start leaving comments, too.
You didn't sound snide or self-righteous. I actually understood more where you were coming from than anyone else in this little discussion. I understand the dangers of the church aligning themselves with the state. I think that's a serious thing. I'm just not so sure I can say, with full conviction, that this program at Porter was intended to do such a thing. This deal at Porter may have established a need to confront those dangers, but I don't think that this was an example of it.
Unfortnately, I'm still very much a Baptist in my head. Maybe that has something to do with it. But I don't think so.
The program itself was not the act of aligning with the State. The fact that it happened reveals how deeply compromised those folks already are. It's the idolatrous attitudes that brought forth the debacle, not the severity of the visual offenses.
Does that help a little?
I feel like I'm back at Ashland. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I don't mean to sound harsh. But I think I can be bluntly honest here. That's what it feels like...whatever that's worth
Hmm...that's a valid point, Jesse...though I still think it falls short of it being an event where the military came in to set up the event - the church would have asked for them to donate the materials so they could hold an event they seem to have instigated themselves as a community event.
That said, there's info on another blog that military recruitment is apparently an ongoing effort of the church administrators on a regular basis, and if that is true, that's going beyond what is appropriate.
Without actually being there to observe this in person I don't want to get too extensive with any additional comments beyond that.
Here's the thing - for me - I have no relationship to Porter Memorial or anyone there. I mean we share an identity in Christ but there is not real, genuine relationship there. So, I can't speak to them about anything really. I have no ground to do that. This is my ground, the ground of relationship. If I have relationship with you, we have a context in which I can whoop you up side your head. Otherwise, I can speak to general principles and theological dangers, etc. I suppose to use a particular church as an example is fine, but any further than that I can't go. I have no ground to walk on to get there.
And Allison, you have raw wounds, you know that. Sorry your bad memories are flowing. Sometimes these things need to be worked out. Hopefully we can do it without harming each other. Of course we need to be straight-up too and call some things out. Anyway, I hope that made sense. Peace.
Made sense. Hopefully, it'll work itself out.
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